Wrong prices

Report a MTG Studio bug you have spotted or ask for help

Moderator: gaddlord

Postby Azul » Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:45 pm

It'd be best to use the way that is most generic. I use store.tcgplayer for all my purchases because it aggregates the prices from all the stores. Most of my cards end up coming from Gamer's Inn, or ChannelFireball. Stuff like Troll and Toad end up being way to expensive to buy from so I don't pay attention to their prices.
User avatar
Azul
Planeswalker
Planeswalker
 
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:35 pm
Location: Canada

Postby Schwanke » Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:54 pm

That was something I was wondering about with prices a while ago and I forget where I asked about it but didnt get a real well informed response.

There seems to be more and more of these individual player multi store sites where people can list their cards on the site and sell to each other without having to use ebay or in forum listings like on mtgsalvation.

Why then do those cards on those sites get so low yet prices on sites like troll and toad or abu games stay so high? Wouldnt everyone just eventually gravitate towards the private sites? Or is the 'professional benefit' of buying from somewhere like troll and toad and their 99cent shipping worth the higher prices vsus dealing with a single random person that might take your money and run lol?

Like I noticed one or two cards I was checking its lowest was a particular price on troll and toad but on one of the gamer sales sites it was half that and people were listing and listing and listing and undercutting each other so much it was practically nothing.

Almost made me wonder if I could buy the stock from the gamer sites and sell them back to troll and toad lol. :D

Curious what you think. I still plan on using mtgstudio as my pricelist because of the convenience of being a database but if these single player sites are catching on and changing the market then it might make sense for Gad to either try and start putting them into the studio system or maybe trying to figure out what percentage lower they are on average and ask Gad to let us have a 'reduce by X percent' button or something in studio.
Schwanke
Planeswalker
Planeswalker
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:49 pm

Postby gaddlord » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:18 am

Gad to either try and start putting them into the studio system or maybe trying to figure out what percentage lower they are on average and ask Gad to let us have a 'reduce by X percent' button or something in studio.


Here is a screenshot of what I am planning:

Image
GET LATEST STABLE http://www.mtgstudio.com/download.aspx
Send feature requests and bugs to gaddlord@mtgstudio.com or vote online.
User avatar
gaddlord
MTG Studio Team
MTG Studio Team
 
Posts: 2951
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:01 pm
Location: Europe

Postby Schwanke » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:10 pm

Awesome!

Is that per card? Or for all cards in the collection?

I see a variety of options and not entirely sure whats usefull or feasable or a pain in the [CENSORED] to code but not very popular lol.

One concept in my head is having a default percentage across all cards.

Another is default based on condition, add or subtract, like maybe the person wants to add 10% for mint but subtract 5 percent for very good or whatever across all cards of those types.

Then there is override like if they feel the price just doesnt fit the rest of them. Like a high price card that is out of whack on one site or something throws the average for that card but the average for everything else is fine.

For the first two options above. You could have a a preference window for the prices maybe in a stats window or something for the whole collection, and then have a percentage field set for each of the conditions. And then a percentage field set that affects them all at once. Could raise mint +10%, verygood -5% then if the whole market shifts in a way they dont like for their personal use they can do +1% to ALL of them.

That might be over kill but I always brain storm and let the dev siphon off the usefull stuff. :)
Schwanke
Planeswalker
Planeswalker
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:49 pm

Postby gaddlord » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:02 am

Schwanke wrote:Is that per card? Or for all cards in the collection?

This screen is for one card only. In this case Terror as said in the titlebar of the window. There will be a similar screen in Tools|Options dialog for setting the default choice. If you use File|Update Prices the default choice will be applied to all cards in the collection, currently selected cards or filtered cards.
See http://mtgstudio.uservoice.com/forums/1 ... ate-prices for more details.

Another is default based on condition, add or subtract, like maybe the person wants to add 10% for mint but subtract 5 percent for very good or whatever across all cards of those types.

Then there is override like if they feel the price just doesnt fit the rest of them. Like a high price card that is out of whack on one site or something throws the average for that card but the average for everything else is fine.

For the first two options above. You could have a a preference window for the prices maybe in a stats window or something for the whole collection, and then have a percentage field set for each of the conditions. And then a percentage field set that affects them all at once. Could raise mint +10%, verygood -5% then if the whole market shifts in a way they dont like for their personal use they can do +1% to ALL of them.

That might be over kill but I always brain storm and let the dev siphon off the usefull stuff. :)

This is a great idea. To have rule based price determination:

[RULE] =
IF [CONDITIONS] THEN
[MODIFIERS]
ELSE
[MODIFIERS]

[CONDITIONS] =
[CONDITION] (AND [CONDITION])* |
[CONDITION] (OR [CONDITION])*

[CONDITION] =
CARD_CONDITION > < >= <= = != MINT, NEAR MINT, etc.
QTY > < >= <= == != 5
SET == != '10E'
FOIL == true, false
PRICE > < >= <= == != 5
...

and price modifiers like

fixed price: $xx.xx
increase with percentage: %x
decrease with percentage: %x
increase with fix price: +$xx.xx
decrease with fix price: -$xx.xx

I have developed such Rules based expert systems in the past but I doubt many users will be skilled enough to write rules like those below:

Code: Select all
if ((Price == undefined) and (Qty > 0)) or (Set = '4E') then
  Price = Price * 1.1
else
  Price = Price * 0.9


And it will take like a month to develop. Any ideas on good predefined (HARDCODED) rules which may be useful for the whole community?
GET LATEST STABLE http://www.mtgstudio.com/download.aspx
Send feature requests and bugs to gaddlord@mtgstudio.com or vote online.
User avatar
gaddlord
MTG Studio Team
MTG Studio Team
 
Posts: 2951
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:01 pm
Location: Europe

Postby Schwanke » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:33 pm

Well how hard coded?

100% no. Each person is going to want a different % up or down depending on their own perception of how 'off' the default is unless maybe someonen who knows the numbers could give an example of default %s but I cant. Unless-2.0 you just scale it. Think people assume Mint/NearMint is the default value cuz its not hard to find them that way and then scale down from there? Dont know.

If you could do something like its hard coded to the point of one variable and that variable is filled by a % choice box then that might work.

IF ((Price == Undefined)) and (Condition == Mint))
Price = Price * MODIFIER_VARIABLE_MINT
End

IF ((Price == Undefined)) and (Condition == Good))
Price = Price * MODIFIER_VARIABLE_GOOD
End

IF ((Price == Undefined)) and (Condition == Fair))
Price = Price * MODIFIER_VARIABLE_FAIR
End

Then Modifier variable would be filled in by a percentage like a box with an up down button for each of the conditions you support. (Havnt used em yet since im only dealing with mint/near mint at the moment.

Then I would have one of these rules for each condition.

See a second stage would be

IF ((Price == Undefined)) and (Condition == CONDITION_DROPDOWN_BOX))
Price = Price * MODIFIER_AMOUNT
End

Then allow the user to add a number of these to the rules page with maybe some safety code so someone doesnt add the same condition twice.

Though I think that might be what you are saying is in the month of development?

I might be babbling over myself but this is actually a bit complicated for me lol but im working with it anyway hehe.

--Extending into the month of development hehe.....

For the groups of modifiers I see selecting one or more single each of:

All Cards
Cards from Set S
Cards with Condition C
Cards with Rarity R.

Then the comibinations would be

All Cards Up/Down Percent X.
All Cards S, C Up/Down Percent X.
All Cards R, C ....

Thats the main grouping I think.

I would see the interface like a seperate window like filters with a top half and a bottom half. The top half would be the place where you design the rules and add them to the bottom half which would be the current list of rules applied to this collection.

For the top I would have

A set of radio button groups and a percent modifier input that would allow positive and negative up to +/-100%

First radio button group with:

-All Cards
-Some Cards

--- All Cards would grey out all the other options on the page except some cards and and the percent modifier.

Selecting Some Cards would allow the other radio button groups to be accessed.

Second radio button group:

"SET"
-Drop down box or pop up window to select which set.
-All Sets

--- Kind of obvios how they work I think.

Third Radio button group

"RARITY"
-One each for each type of rarity. Your choice if you allow multiple rarity choices on these radio buttons or force people to make a new rule for each rarity.
-All Rarities

"CONDITION"
-One for each condition type because if I remember correctly you hard coded them. (Havnt used em yet since I'm dealing in all mint at the moment)
-All Conditions

Then finally the % modifier box as mentioned with an updown choice from +100% to -100% Theoretically someone could want more then +100% but you have to stop somewhere or development becomes a royal pain lol. Btw, -100% is feasable because some people believe commons are worth 0.00$US and actually throw them out or burn them lol.

I know this is all the part of your month development but I thought it might lend some ideas to where I was going with that that might give you more ideas on what might be hard codable now or maybe partially codable without a full month of development hehe.
Schwanke
Planeswalker
Planeswalker
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:49 pm

Postby Schwanke » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:41 pm

After rereading forgot that for the multiple choice radio button is really a check box lol. Radio buttons are one exclusive.

And didnt mention the design of the buttom half of the window which would basically be a set of rules that have been defined along with maybe an arrow next to each one that allows it to be moved up and down the list and then a - to delete it.

Adding a rule would add it to the end of the list then they could move it up if they wanted to.

Rules are executed in the order they are listed and price changes are cumulitive.

So theoretically someone who was super controlling might do

All Cards + 5%
Rares +10 %
Commons - 4%
All Cards -2%

It would compound in that order. Yes All Cards would be compounded twice. Simple to code if your just crunching the rules and allows for people who want to say modify the whole grouping without taking out an old rule right away such as for experimenting with mass changes.

Just ideas. My major in college was interface design and though I failed out for personal reasons the classes I did take I aced and was kind of a teachers pet lol. I'm not perfect but I've been told by multiple people I have kind of a wierd intuition even with my brain damage lol.

Maybe you'll disagree and tell me "YOU SUCK!" :D :D :D

Havin a blast. Thanks. :)
Schwanke
Planeswalker
Planeswalker
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:49 pm

Postby gaddlord » Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:17 pm

I believe you got the right expression on what possible can be the best solution.

- have ordered set of rules applied to a card or set of cards
- have a number of card properties to check against
= set
= rarity
= qty
= price
= condition
= etc.
- support for AND, OR, NOT operators
- expressions can be build with parenthesis
- rules are build in the standard if CONDITIONS then ACTION else ACTION form
- there is final variable called PRICE_VALUE which is being assigned by the rules is used to update the collection column

Here is the good news:

I know exactly what you mean and below tis the UI of the proof that this is achievable:

The interface for rules editing:
Image

The helper interface for rule condition validation
Image

Here is the bad news:
It will take me some time to recode this stuff from C# to Delphi and integrate it into MTG Studio.

I must admit that I am in doubt whether this can be useful for the majority of the MTG Studio users.

I am really keen on knowing other people's thought so thanks for sharing.
GET LATEST STABLE http://www.mtgstudio.com/download.aspx
Send feature requests and bugs to gaddlord@mtgstudio.com or vote online.
User avatar
gaddlord
MTG Studio Team
MTG Studio Team
 
Posts: 2951
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:01 pm
Location: Europe

Postby Schwanke » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:39 pm

Well the easy solution is add it to the feedback yourself maybe with the tag 'considered' or something and then let people vote it to the top. Maybe 3 or 4 versions from now as other stuff gets finished and people get their voting points back it will be popular.

Might be the kind of thing where people dont even know they want it until you get the 'first version' of the current planned price system out. Might need to have some hands on with what you have so far before people can say "ohh. ok. now I know how *I* would do it"

Part of the issue I think is people like you and me can read and think code without having a working product in front of us where as most people need to have a program to play with before they can talk about what they wish was different. The pricing changes are a big change and new so most people who cant think code will need to see it in action before they are really sure of how they wish they had suggested it was different before it was released.

Just my opinion I guess but I am thinking of the person that had so much trouble with the backing up to another computer. They weren't stupid they just didnt think the way you thought when it was coded and I had to re-explain things in different ways until the combinations made sense.

Most people arent going to have a clue what we are talking about let alone be able to think about writing in meta code lol but maybe once the basic price system is included people will say "Hey, is there a way to make all my rares go up bo 25%?" and you'll start to get a feel for whats popular.

That was partial what I said in the first place about the hard coding. I have no idea what price modifications will be popular until I start to see the prices the default system generates. I guess there is see the defaults and then dream about the world's best pricing system lol and until we get other people's inputs there really isnt an inbetween and I dont think we will see that until the current stuff is out there and in use.

Nice thing about my life situation is I have almost 100% free time lol so I can do stuff like write the same explanation in 4 different ways and not feel like omg I have to get to work lol. Try to put my free time to a benefit to the comunity hehe.
Schwanke
Planeswalker
Planeswalker
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:49 pm

Postby jddyslexia » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:42 am

I'm not finding anywhere in the program where I can update how my prices report. I found the "Update Prices" option in the menu, but I still don't think it's 100% accurate.

For example, $222.57 for an Ice Age Swords to Plowshares?
$412.49 for an alternate art Dark Ritual from a Coldsnap preconstructed deck?

I'm not sure where these prices are coming from, but they don't seem nearly accurate. I've always used magiccards.info to look up prices since they collect prices from different online vendors and give a Low/Mid/High.

Is there anywhere in the program where I can see how/where these prices are coming from?
jddyslexia
Apprentice
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: New Bedford, MA

Postby Schwanke » Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:01 am

Hmm. I thought that was fixed in one of the incremental updates. I would have to find the thread again but I posted a thread where you could install 1.8.3Beta portable from scratch with all the updates in it. That SHOULD have that fix.

It WAS a known bug but it was fixed I am pretty sure but you have to know about the update. I dont *THINK* its fixed in the version you download from the main page unless gad updated it since the last time I looked.

**EDIT**
OK here is the link for the beta install:
http://www.mtgstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1360

It should have all the components you need. I highly recommend just using the portable because its easier to move to another machine if you ever need to. You can even backup the whole thing, installation and everything to a USB key or cd if you need to without having to try and find the collection file or anything else you've changed.

Hope that helps.
Schwanke
Planeswalker
Planeswalker
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:49 pm

Postby jddyslexia » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:36 pm

It did eliminate the outrageous prices that were showing up before, but I just came across another one when I added to my collection:

Smash
Ravnica Common
Listed as $11.72
jddyslexia
Apprentice
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: New Bedford, MA

Postby Schwanke » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:09 am

Wierd. I dont know how he does the pricing but at this point like he said its how he 'did' the priceing so for all we know that one and any others are already fixed in the next version just from the overhaul.

I guess the best bet is to keep an eye out for things that look fishy like that for example and just hope he cracked whatever that was that was doing that in the rewrite.
Schwanke
Planeswalker
Planeswalker
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:49 pm

Postby gaddlord » Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:22 pm

The truth guys is that one single overrated card can skew to the total average.

In the new version of MTG Studio I will list all card prices and allow you to pick the one that closely matches your cards properties (like set, condition, foil-ness) etc.

I think if you are in control of picking the price from a list of 10-15 referenced prices from other sources you will be much more accurate than my automated AVG.
GET LATEST STABLE http://www.mtgstudio.com/download.aspx
Send feature requests and bugs to gaddlord@mtgstudio.com or vote online.
User avatar
gaddlord
MTG Studio Team
MTG Studio Team
 
Posts: 2951
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:01 pm
Location: Europe

Postby Schwanke » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:29 pm

Ok but do we have to pick the price for each card or can we have a default set of 'characteristics'? And how easy are they to change/override. On the one hand in a normal booster box you might have 1/20th of the box be foils but on the other hand a alara block foil box is all foils.

I was hoping you would do something like choosing the characterstics and then having an option to pick average/high/low etc...

I was really looking forward to the averaging aspect because I do want the average so I can say that when I list my prices on say mtgsalvation I can say 'aproxamite market averge as calculated by mtg studio' with a link to the software.

Like I only ever plan on listing the value of cards that are mint/nm so the only two charactersitic combinations I would need would be mint/nm-foil and mint/nm-non-foil and I would want the average across all the sites, not just picking one.

As for the outlier screwing it up you could always do what statisions and mathemetitions do from time to time and drop the lowest and highest. If they are in range of the ones that are left then it wont affect the average that much and if one of them is whacko it will compensate for their whackyness.

I guess I'll adapt to whatever you end up doing in the next version but I was really looking forward to a 'smart average' which is what I thought you were doing unless you are doing that too and I missed it?
Schwanke
Planeswalker
Planeswalker
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:49 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Bugs (MTG Studio)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest